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Pharma Trends: The Return of the FDA Warning Letters [Simone Ammons] Simone (George) Ammons
Yan Kugel is joined by Christy Mazzarisi, a distinguished leader in the pharmaceutical industry with extensive experience in quality systems and leadership roles. In this episode, we explore Christy’s journey in pharma, her works, her impact on advocacy and leadership, and her vision for empowering women in the pharmaceutical industry.
Table of Contents
Christy Mazzarisi has been in the life sciences space for about 20 years, working in various quality roles within the pharmaceutical industry. She shares her journey from starting in the laboratory to leading quality and clinical teams at Network Partners Group. Her experiences have shaped her approach to leadership and advocacy for women in the industry.
Christy discusses the challenges she faced as a young woman entering leadership roles in a male-dominated industry. She shares her experiences of navigating authoritative leadership styles and balancing work with family responsibilities. Christy emphasizes the importance of finding mentors, coaches, and sponsors within the organization to support career growth and development.
Christy’s experiences have led her to become the Women in Quality chair for ASQ, where she mentors and coaches young women in their careers. She emphasizes the need for women to speak up and seek support when facing disrespectful or challenging situations in the workplace. Christy’s dedication to empowering women in quality and leadership is evident in her commitment to hosting webinars and supporting women’s leadership initiatives.
Christy encourages young professionals to seek mentors, coaches, and sponsors within their organizations. She emphasizes the importance of finding people with similar values and cultural outlooks to guide and support career growth. Building relationships with experienced professionals can provide invaluable learning opportunities and support in navigating the complexities of the pharmaceutical industry.
Christy shares a pivotal moment in her career where she realized the importance of tackling uncomfortable situations and fears. She advises young professionals to identify areas of discomfort and fear and work on addressing them one by one. By stepping out of their comfort zones, individuals can unlock their true potential and become more resilient in their careers.
Christy Mazzarisi’s journey in the pharmaceutical industry serves as an inspiration for women aspiring to leadership roles. Her dedication to empowering women in quality and leadership highlights the importance of seeking mentorship and building relationships within the industry. As the industry continues to evolve, the support and guidance of experienced professionals like Christy are essential for the growth and success of future leaders in pharma.
Episode Chapters:
00:28 – 01:01
Yan Kugel: Welcome to today’s episode focusing on female leadership in pharma, the challenges and opportunities. And our guest today is Christy Mazzarisi, and she’s a distinguished leader in the pharmaceutical industry with extensive experience in quality systems and leadership roles. And In this episode, we explore Christy’s journey in pharma, her works, impact on advocacy and leadership, and her vision for empowering women in the pharmaceutical industry. So Christy, welcome to the podcast. It’s great to have you here again.
01:02 – 01:11
Christy Mazzarisi: Thank you. No, I appreciate it. I enjoy, you know, spreading some information and sharing what I can with everyone. So thanks, Yan, for having me again.
01:11 – 01:33
Yan Kugel: Yeah, so it’s my pleasure. So to dive into this interesting topic, Maybe we can start with a bit about your background in pharma and quality and maybe you can pinpoint the main roles that you served in pharma and the steps you made to get to leadership roles?
01:34 – 02:13
Christy Mazzarisi: Sure. So I mean, I have been in the life sciences space for about 20 years now. Worked, started in the laboratory early in my career, and realized from there that I wanted to get into something different and something bigger within an organization. So I moved into quality systems, then I worked in quality operations and then quality compliance. So I have worked through pretty much every quality role you could within my early career and throughout even to today. So I went into leadership when I was a supervisor of quality systems. That was my first real leadership role
02:13 – 02:45
Christy Mazzarisi: where I led a team in the system space. Loved it. I loved everything about quality systems. It’s 1 of my favorite areas if I had to choose 1. And then from there, I moved into leading quality compliance for a couple consulting organizations. Did that for a couple of years. And then wanted to get back into industry. I feel like when you’re consulting, especially in the middle of your career, it’s important to kind of at some point go back to industry, see what’s going on again, get back into the swing of things on the other side of
02:45 – 03:17
Christy Mazzarisi: the fence. So I went back to industry for a while as the VP of quality for a couple small organizations, did that for a little bit, and then thought that it would be great to get back to consulting. It was time for me to go back again. So I’ve been consulting for the last year or so again. So out of the 20 years, I’ve consulted for about 10. So about half of my career actually, I didn’t realize that till now. Yeah, right. So, and I’ve helped in all areas of quality. And now I’m actually leading the
03:17 – 03:22
Christy Mazzarisi: quality and clinical teams at Network Partners Group. So consulting again in that space.
03:24 – 04:02
Yan Kugel: Right. So you had a nice journey. It’s so interesting. You know, So I think that’s really correct that sometimes we need to go back to the industry to understand what’s going on. So this is 1 of the reasons I also chose to do auditing as a part of my activities, because sometimes you want to go back, see what’s going on the ground, because otherwise it’s difficult to stay current and really know what are the hot topics. So, you know, we organize events and webinars, so we always need to be on top of things. And if you’re
04:02 – 04:15
Yan Kugel: not there, it’s a bit more difficult, but that’s why I also love having those chats with experts such as yourself, because it helps me understand what’s going on there and feel connected to the industry.
04:16 – 04:41
Christy Mazzarisi: Yeah, and that was my thought, too, throughout my career is how do I stay on top of things? How do I keep moving forward? How do I keep growing? And that’s why for me, it was important to from consulting to go back for a little bit to industry and then come back again, to really be able to lead more effectively, understand both sides of the story as a consultant or as a sponsor. So for me, that was why I did what I did.
04:42 – 05:04
Yan Kugel: So I think it was a nice decision. And good to see that you’re back in consulting and you now added before that you were mostly in pharma, now you have added clinical to that. So that opens another world of opportunities and challenges, right?
05:05 – 05:35
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes. You know, and it’s something I’ve always enjoyed supporting and working closely with clinical teams. And I’ve led some clinical teams in the past. And that was when I had little clinical experience and they taught me everything that I need to know. So having a great team with you is key to being a great leader. So for me, being able to now do that again is super exciting. I love that space and applying clinical, need to work hand in hand, So it works well.
05:36 – 06:11
Yan Kugel: Yeah, so that’s a That’s a so I never had the chance to work in the clinical arena only in research than pharma So I think right in clinical, it’s probably smaller teams. It’s less Smaller organizations right in big pharma. So you’re more attached to what’s happening on the ground. And yeah, so it’s a, I guess it’s quite different leadership styles, maybe corporate versus smaller companies, more connected to the teams and to each individual contributors, right?
06:12 – 06:44
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes. And for me, I tend to move towards those smaller organizations. For me, I enjoy a less corporate feel when I’m working with clients, when I’m working with the clinical teams, the smaller teams. You really get to know people a lot better and a lot more. And for me, anyone that I work with alongside, I want to get to know you. I want to know, you know, as much as I can about you. I want you to get to know me. I feel like building the relationship is the key piece to being able to not only
06:44 – 07:10
Christy Mazzarisi: work together better, but lead each other, support each other the best way we can through whatever jobs we’re doing together, right? And then even maybe outside of that, like, how can I help you network? How can I help you grow? Is there anything that I can do for you outside of the consulting space? So it’s really important for me to get to know who we’re working with. And I tend to favor the smaller midsize clients for that reason. It’s easy to get to know everybody.
07:11 – 07:50
Yan Kugel: Yeah, so I can agree on that. So there are perks for both working for and with bigger companies. So as a professional, you probably can learn much more in smaller companies because you wear more hats, you have more responsibilities. So usually when people ask me and the people after university and some want to start their journey in quality and they ask, oh, should I go to a big company, small company? So I say, it depends what you want. You want stability. You go to a big company, but you will probably be, you can gain expertise in
07:50 – 08:20
Yan Kugel: a very narrow area. But if you go to a smaller company, you can really expand your knowledge vastly. You will probably be dropped more into the cold water, a lot of self-learning and you are, you know, probably you will have less training time, but you will probably learn much more and help you, you know, get in touch with the other department and so on. So do you agree with that as well?
08:21 – 08:49
Christy Mazzarisi: I do. I think as a young professional, early in your career, for me anyhow, I wanted to know as much as I could, as fast as I could. And I think early on, it helps you early in your career to go somewhere smaller where You can learn a bunch of different things and see well. What do I like? What do I enjoy doing the most and then start narrowing in on what you love to do because you know you’re working for a really long time, right? So you might as well love what you do. So it’s
08:49 – 09:00
Christy Mazzarisi: really important to find what fits you. And the earlier you find it, the happier you’ll be in your career. Because then you’ll know what you need to learn more of what you want to focus on. So yeah, I agree completely.
09:01 – 09:41
Yan Kugel: Yeah. And if you go narrow to the topic of the women leadership in pharma, right? So pharma is quite unique work in space, right? So it is known that in many industries that there is a bias and salary bias and for women is more difficult to get managerial roles or leadership roles? So do you feel that the farm is a bit different or would you say there are still challenges that you had to face that your male counterparts didn’t have to?
09:42 – 10:19
Christy Mazzarisi: So I feel like it’s getting better from when I was younger and when I first entered leadership it was very tough for me early on. And the places that I was at and the people that I worked with, I did notice it was pretty much led by men, pretty much across most companies I worked with. And some were more open than others, right? Because every company is different. But for me, entering leadership as a young woman, it was very difficult when everybody else was a man. And then certain things were expected that it was harder for
10:19 – 10:49
Christy Mazzarisi: a young woman, especially because I had young Children at the time to be able to do certain things, right? Because I was trying to be a leader, a mentor and a mom, and a wife, right? All at the same time. So it was it was tough. And I can say I did get a lot of, I did get a lot of backlash for some of that in my early career, but I could say it’s the last, I don’t know, 8, 9 years of my career have been way better. And I don’t know if that’s because I’ve
10:49 – 11:21
Christy Mazzarisi: chosen my companies more selectively, I’ve paid attention to culture as I’ve moved from company to company, culture is gonna be key. I also make sure I look at leadership, what does leadership look like before I go from job to job now, right? You know, are there women there? Are there men there who are mentors to other women and vice versa, right? For me, I want the culture is the key, right? And then who you see sitting in leadership or in those influential positions, even if they’re not necessarily in leadership, but sometimes you lead by influence, right?
11:21 – 11:47
Christy Mazzarisi: Not necessarily by title or where you sit on the hierarchy. But who’s influencing? And I think as I moved up in my career, I made sure to look at those things because early in my career I had some terrible situations that taught me a lot. But without those situations, I would have never known all these things, right? So being selective is key as you move to your next journey in your career.
11:48 – 12:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so that’s quite interesting, this experience, because I think when men go to similar roles, they don’t probably feel pressure because they are aware of the term biases, right? So when I started my careers, I worked at the beginning with first companies, both pharmaceuticals, second was buyer, both huge corporations. And what I’ve seen interestingly, I started in the quality control and I’ve seen that actually it was a more female-dominated area. Right? So all
12:34 – 12:52
Yan Kugel: my managers, so actually all my managers forever, like direct ones at least were always women for me. I think that in pharma, I never had a direct male manager. And that’s what-
12:52 – 12:58
Christy Mazzarisi: What’s the opposite for most of my career, not the whole thing, but most of my career. Yeah.
12:58 – 13:42
Yan Kugel: So maybe because of that, it got me thinking that maybe pharma, because it’s more of a science environment, there are a lot also in the university, a lot of women. Like when I said biotech, there were more women there than men, because men maybe chose different paths. And also it translated to the laboratory and also in the quality assurance, almost all, I don’t know, maybe 70% in the managers in the quality assurance were women. And I was like, for my surrounding, it was like, for me, it’s a great environment for women to flourish if they get,
13:42 – 14:07
Yan Kugel: as you said, to the right organizations and the right places. But as you said, it seems that it’s not always the case. And you said that there were difficulties and you encounter backlashes. So can you elaborate on that? So what kind of backlashes And why do you think like if it was the same position where it was like a man, it would be the same attitude to it?
14:08 – 14:47
Christy Mazzarisi: So I had early, early, it was my first leadership position. And that’s where I had, I think, the most challenges because pretty much all the directors and above were all men. And most of the managers, senior managers, and supervisors were all women, which was kind of funny the way that played out. But there were times where I had to make some decisions on certain products. And when I would make those decisions, if they weren’t what they wanted to hear, it was a problem. So for me, as a quality person, and I feel I have a lot
14:47 – 15:20
Christy Mazzarisi: of integrity, so if I don’t think something should be done, I’m not going to bend because someone above me said so, right? Or said, well, we need to make money. We need to push this out. We need to get it out faster. Okay, well, I understand the business side, right? Especially now in my career, I understand there’s a business side and then there’s the quality side. And sometimes you have to be able to speak both languages as a leader to translate things. And I think back then I probably didn’t have enough knowledge or understanding how the
15:20 – 16:09
Christy Mazzarisi: 2 mesh together, which was a growth opportunity for me when I was having those issues. But on the other side, I feel like if I was working with women when I was making those decisions, I feel like they might have listened a little more and maybe not been so authoritative because that was a lot of The the way those companies worked was well I’m the VP and you’re gonna do it because I said so whether it’s right or not, right? And that’s not how I work. So I think it’s the way I’ve seen the companies I’ve
16:09 – 16:38
Christy Mazzarisi: been with since then, you know, I make sure that there’s a collaborative style, right? When I meet these people, like, can we talk through things? Can we try and be innovative? OK, something’s not working. Is there an interesting way around getting it to work? Or how can we get it to work? Let’s get a team together. Let’s figure it out. I’m not more, not very authoritative in my style. More informal. I like to have conversations. I like to understand people. So for me, back early in my career, that was really difficult when I had people telling
16:38 – 17:07
Christy Mazzarisi: me what to do, whether it was right or not. And that’s when you realize, okay, it’s time for me to move on, right? When you’re no longer getting opportunity for growth. And then because I wouldn’t always agree on certain things, it hindered my growth where I was. Oh, okay, well, you’re not gonna do this now because you won’t do this as fast as we need it. Or, you know, as an example, It was a challenge. And because I had young kids at the time, there was a lot of, well, why do you have to leave at
17:07 – 17:38
Christy Mazzarisi: this time? Well, I come in extra early to kind of balance it out and I work on the weekends and I put in the extra time. I feel like it’s a lot more demanding for a woman, at least it was back then, to be able to do it all and be everything, right? Whereas now, most of the companies I’ve been with are very family oriented. We all have families. We all understand how that goes. A kid is sick, you have a kid standing behind you or whatever while you’re talking to somebody. It’s become a little more
17:38 – 18:11
Christy Mazzarisi: normal. I don’t know if that is because of COVID and whatnot and people having to work with families all around where we’re more accepting, but back then it wasn’t as accepting. So a lot of backlash for that. And it really hindered my growth where I was. So, you know, 1 of the catalysts from my experience early in leadership for that was, was to move on and start some women in leadership group. So 1 of the things I did out of my experiences over the last couple of years, I joined ASQ and I’ve been an active member
18:11 – 18:41
Christy Mazzarisi: with them for a long time, but they were looking to have some women in leadership chairs within their organization. And of course I raised my hand, I’d love to do it. I want to help, right? How can I help? So I’ve been the women in quality chair for ASQ for some time now, and I support being a mentor to some young women in their career. We meet monthly or at some cadence and I help them work through their careers, what they want to learn, where they want to go. I also coach some women out of that
18:41 – 19:15
Christy Mazzarisi: forum through situations like I went through. Okay, here I’m having this problem with my boss. How should I handle it or what should we do? I help them work through those situations. And then I also do monthly webinars as well, they’ll start back up in the fall, around women’s leadership, whether it’s, you know, topics of negotiation, how to negotiate better, quality culture as a women leader, being seen as a valued business partner, that’s a big issue for women, I think, as well as being seen as a person who should be sitting in all the business decisions,
19:16 – 19:41
Christy Mazzarisi: and especially as a quality leader and a quality leader that’s a woman, we should really be up there sitting in the board, in with the executive team, supporting the business at the top, right? Building in quality right up front where all the business decisions are made. And how can I empower other women? So that’s why I do Women in Quality. So if anybody wants to join Women in Quality with ASQ, you know, I would be happy to share my information.
19:42 – 20:31
Yan Kugel: That’s great. So you can share that with me and then I can put it in the post for this podcast. So people who would like to get more information, they can follow this link or get in touch with you. So I think it’s very helpful to have such groups and events and that can be overwhelming to come to a bigger organization or pharma. And depending which country you’re at, in some countries, it’s very authoritative. Some are with your peers than others. And people from all over the world can contribute here and there from their perspective what’s
20:31 – 21:10
Yan Kugel: happening in their countries, right? So it probably also varies between the countries and etc. Right? And so you said you had difficulties where it was difficult to convince people with information, right? So do you think if it was a man, for example, the VP said, no, we need to do this and that, I’m the VP, I’m saying that. So do you think if a man with who is probably still below the VP would address it. Do you think their reaction would be different?
21:11 – 21:42
Christy Mazzarisi: I think it would depend on the person and their style, who they are. But I know for me, I was very timid and very shy back then. So when someone would come at me like that, I let it be, and I didn’t address it. I would like kind of like, okay, that was awful. I’m gonna go over here now. And I would kind of like never really head on confront the situation and really confront them about being disrespectful or you know working through things a bit differently. I think now that has changed for me a lot
21:42 – 22:11
Christy Mazzarisi: but I think maybe if it was a man and a man I think it could that that situation probably would have gone quite differently than it did because I did not stick up for myself at the time. I kind of just was like, okay, well, I’m only the supervisor. I can’t say anything. You know, it’ll just get me in more trouble. So I’m just gonna lay I’m just gonna just gonna wait here and see what happens, right? So I became a little complacent to it until I realized it was time to go. Whereas, you know, now
22:11 – 22:39
Christy Mazzarisi: I realize, and this is what I tell young women all the time, is don’t allow that to happen. If someone’s being disrespectful to you, no matter what level they’re at, speak up. If you don’t want to speak up to them, you know, look at your HR policies or something like that, or a trusted colleague, somebody you can talk to about it because you don’t want to let anything escalate or possibly, you know, turn into something it doesn’t need to be, right? Or maybe there’s a miscommunication. You just need someone to help both of you come together
22:39 – 22:53
Christy Mazzarisi: because maybe your communication styles are just very different. And sometimes you need a middle person to kind of help navigate that or a really good facilitator. But I think sticking up for yourself is key if there’s disrespect in the air.
22:54 – 23:08
Yan Kugel: Right. So I think that’s a very important part to know who is your friend in the organization and who you can approach if you feel that there is
23:08 – 23:48
Speaker 4: a hostile environment or you’re not being cared and see if somebody can help you out. And sometimes what people sometimes don’t realize From the university, a lot of time, you don’t want to think about it, but there is a lot of politics. So you need to be smart. You need to connect with the people who you think, or as you said, mentorship, or at least start following people, getting advice from people who you think can be your role models in the organization.
23:48 – 23:50
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes. Leaders.
23:50 – 24:28
Yan Kugel: And you shouldn’t wait until there is an issue, because if there is an issue and you just barge in, oh, I need your help, it doesn’t sit well. So you should probably start early, slowly building a relationship with people you admire in the organization or hold up to and slowly build a relationship where you can come to them for support. Because I think also in politics, it’s not a screaming match. I think the battles are 1 behind closed doors or you have the stronger allies sometimes, right?
24:29 – 25:01
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes, no, I agree. I kind of have this little motto that I kind of follow or this little strategy. And this is something that I’ve taught at some of my webinars. And I teach it a lot in some quality culture and leadership workshops that I do. Is that everybody in their career, and I say, like you mentioned, start early on, right? Don’t wait for an issue to happen, but everyone should look for a mentor, someone that can guide them, encourage them, and a coach, right? Someone who can kind of push them to their goals, right? Tell
25:01 – 25:35
Christy Mazzarisi: them what to do, not necessarily how to do it, but how to get to their goals, right? Have that trusted friend within the organization. Have somebody that can sanity check them, help them through things like, hey, am I reading this wrong? And it should be someone in their organization, right? That trusted friend or trusted partner, so that they can support each other through some of the challenging times at work and a sponsor, right? Somebody, like you said, your ally, who may be a couple levels up, but somebody who will talk about you when you’re not in
25:35 – 25:49
Christy Mazzarisi: the room, right? They will say great things. Your name will pop up because they believe in you. They will be like your influencer within the organization, right? Start developing those key relationships and that will help you a lot in your career.
25:51 – 26:06
Yan Kugel: Do you have any advice on how to build such relationships in a way which is natural and not over demanding and that the person would actually be interested naturally to support you.
26:08 – 26:40
Christy Mazzarisi: So I think it’s about finding the right people you click with. The first mentor you find may not be the mentor you stick with, right? You may not click, It may seem like it’s great in the beginning, and then you both realize you’re on 2 different paths. You wanna find people who fit within your own belief set, you know, your own values. People that have the same kind of culture outlook that you do, I think it’ll help better because you’ll all be on the same pathway, right? The same journey. They might be ahead of you, but
26:40 – 27:09
Christy Mazzarisi: you’re all on that same road, all right? And they’ll understand where you’re coming from and what you’re talking about. Finding people in an organization that you realize, oh, I love talking to this person. I wonder if they’d be willing to mentor me, right? Or I really look up to this person. I’d love to be them 1 day. How do I do that? I’ve found for me, I just go up to them. I say, hey, I absolutely adore you. I love what you do. I watch it. I see how you handle yourself in the board meetings. I
27:09 – 27:41
Christy Mazzarisi: see this. I see that. Will you be my mentor? I mean, I would love to understand how you got there. And most people are super willing to be like, oh, that’s really awesome. Yeah, let’s sit and let’s talk about it and then see if it clicks. I think you have to kind of put yourself out there a little bit with people to tell them what you need. And at the same time, you know, can that person reciprocate and give me that? A lot of people, I think senior in their career are very willing to start mentorships
27:42 – 28:13
Christy Mazzarisi: or coaching for the younger generation because I won’t be here forever, right? So how do I pass on what I know? And it’s by mentoring, coaching, and developing others, which is why I love leading teams because I love teaching and developing. Like I wanna see people push past their comfort zones. I wanna help push them over the edge a little bit, right? Help them get there a little faster. Cause that’s 1 of the things I realized that having a good mentor has done for me. They’ve pushed me past so many different comfort levels, but I wouldn’t
28:13 – 28:14
Christy Mazzarisi: be where I am today if they didn’t.
28:15 – 29:01
Yan Kugel: Yeah, so I think that’s very correct what you’re saying. And I think when I was younger and started such positions, I had people who I thought were really great at what they do. But I didn’t have the knowledge or the communication skill in such a hierarchical company to think, okay, can I come to this person say, you know what, what you’re doing is great? You know, I want to learn, you know, to speak in a meeting as you do and to lead a meeting or, you know, to encourage people and et cetera, et cetera, because I
29:01 – 29:29
Yan Kugel: think people actually can be flattered by that. And they can actually like if I’m thinking if somebody would come to me and say, you know what, you know, I would learn I would like to learn how you do this and that, so I probably would say, you know, sure, come, you know, I have a meeting, you know, you can be a fly in the wall. Right. So just sit there, listen, see what’s going on. So sometimes it’s that easy. So I think sometimes there is no issue that if you want to learn something that somebody just
29:29 – 30:02
Yan Kugel: won’t tell you. I have a meeting with the board of director and I don’t know, they don’t mind just come, see it if it’s not something confidential and you can just observe and build relationship with that. So this is something that is so true that sometimes we just need the courage or the knowledge that it’s such a younger age to say, you know what, people experience, people love sharing their expertise. So don’t be shy to ask for it. Right?
30:03 – 30:32
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes. And I think that’s, you know, what we need to spread a little bit, is communicate. If you want something, you’ve got to say it. Because if you’re not, somebody else is, right? And 1 of the things I learned early on, which I wish I did more of, I wish I asked for more of what I wanted early on in my career, but I realized the most that can happen is they say, no, okay, no big deal, right, move on. So really there’s not much bad that can come from even asking.
30:33 – 30:38
Yan Kugel: Right. Only good at the end, right? So either you get it or you don’t get it. But sometimes, as
30:38 – 30:57
Speaker 4: you said, sometimes you just need to change your location, right? Change your place in your life. Because Sometimes you are in an illusion that you have dreams. You want to be with your quality or whatever you want to become.
30:58 – 30:58
Christy Mazzarisi: We’re in
30:58 – 31:33
Yan Kugel: an organization and you think, yeah, I can do it by myself, but if you ask them they will might say you know what? Could that you ask you have a program leadership program and you might be good for it Let’s you know do it this or let’s try it out or they could say you know what, we don’t think that you will, from our assessment, you know, it’s not for you, right? So then you can either just, you know, take it up, you know, just accept it, or you can say, you know what, I believe in
31:33 – 32:08
Yan Kugel: myself and if you don’t believe in me, then, you know, I will find another organization that will believe in me. Right. And the sooner you realized it, then so before you waste 5, 10 years in such a company, like a battling, you know, position after position without without even realizing that, you know, your road is blocked there because somebody, you know, maybe somebody doesn’t like your uptops and you don’t have somebody to stick out for you and you’re just fighting against waves that you cannot beat, right? So then you just change location.
32:09 – 32:41
Christy Mazzarisi: Yes. Yep. And that’s why it’s important to, if you see that happening somewhere, be very selective of where you go next. Look for the opposite of everything you’ve had, right? And look for somewhere that, you know, you mentioned a leadership program. A lot of companies now have some type of mentorship or leadership program. I see that more and more with my clients, with the past companies I’ve been with. And even at the company I’m at, we have a leadership program as well for newly graduating students that we develop and mentor them early on in their careers.
32:41 – 33:10
Christy Mazzarisi: So that was actually 1 of the main reasons I chose to come to Network partners was because of their ability to mentor and develop and teach others with the leadership program. So a lot of companies have leadership programs. So, you know, young men and women in their career, I suggest that you look for a company that has 1. That means that they invest in their employees, right? These are the little things you need to look for for how mature is the company that I wanna go to, right? When it comes to the leadership, the quality culture,
33:12 – 33:36
Christy Mazzarisi: are they family oriented? Do they have the same values you have? Make sure you can find a company that aligns with your values, because if they really don’t, you’re going to struggle there. Right. Or you’ll have to compromise and be willing to compromise your value set to match theirs. So those are some of the tips for finding that next step. If you’ve had such a rough time somewhere, those are some of the things I look for.
33:37 – 34:24
Yan Kugel: Right, right. And if you’re talking about the leadership style, right, So you said you’re not confrontational, right? You’re more informational, right? And I know that there is this thought that for a woman to go up in the ranks, right, they need to be overly aggressive, and they need to be always, you know, they need to shout louder than the men and make sure that the men are intimidated, right? So there are, and there I’ve seen such women that actually do it and dates I think it’s like can be exhausting like to walk around always like you
34:24 – 34:34
Speaker 4: know And like everybody’s cared of you because I don’t know Right. I don’t know. Yeah
34:36 – 34:48
Yan Kugel: Just the way you are I don’t think it’s very healthy, But a lot of people believe that this is how women need to act in order to compete in the male world, right? So what is your thoughts on that?
34:48 – 35:13
Christy Mazzarisi: So actually, that was when I had that the big issues I had early in my first leadership positions. Some of the HR folks there when I would go to them and escalate issues that were happening to me. Some of the advice that they gave me is act more like a man. Take up space in the meeting rooms, take up space, sit
35:13 – 35:14
Yan Kugel: a certain way.
35:15 – 35:41
Christy Mazzarisi: They said, be louder, stand up taller, wear, wear heels those days. I’m a very, I know you can’t tell here, but I’m short. So that was their advice as well put on heels that day. So you look taller and bigger. And I’m like, okay. And so early in my career, I didn’t really like, what do you mean, act more like a man? So I really had to think about that for a while. OK, that’s interesting. Yes. So it’s really.
35:41 – 35:44
Yan Kugel: Yeah, bring a gun, right? They come with a machete, right?
35:44 – 35:52
Christy Mazzarisi: Yeah. So it really as soon as I heard you say what you said, it triggered that memory where I was told to act more like a man. Interesting.
35:52 – 35:58
Yan Kugel: What do you think about it now? Is it a good advice or there is a better way?
35:58 – 35:59
Speaker 4: I don’t think so.
35:59 – 36:33
Christy Mazzarisi: I mean, I don’t think so. For me, I think if you’re authentic, so I’m big on authenticity. I don’t change who I am, whether I’m talking to you or the CEO, or whether I’m talking to, you know, 1 of our leadership program folks right out of college. I talk to everybody the same. I’m very authentic and true to my values. And I’m willing to go into the gray and go back and forth and help you out. But as far as being me, I’m going to be me no matter where I am and no matter who I’m
36:33 – 37:05
Christy Mazzarisi: talking to. And I feel like that has actually helped me move up in my career more than anything else. I think the whole act like a man statement that was given to me is really not the way the work culture is going, right? It’s passion led, right? More people are following their passion than anything else. And that’s because they’re moving within their value set rather than the old school way of, you know, authoritative workforces and things like that. I feel like it’s not like that anymore. And the culture is not going that way in the life
37:05 – 37:36
Christy Mazzarisi: science industry anyhow that I see. So I think be yourself, you know, and again, yes, sometimes you have to be firm. Sometimes you have to be serious, right? But be you all the time, right? I’m not 1 of those where I don’t like to put on like a face, you know, to try and get someone to like me or see my viewpoint. No, this is let’s talk about it. And this is who I am. And this is how I’m going to do it. And I’m not going to shout. I’m not going to be disrespectful. I’m not
37:36 – 37:39
Christy Mazzarisi: going to take up space or wear heels that day. Right.
37:40 – 37:45
Yan Kugel: Did you get this advice from a man or a woman? That’s from a man. OK,
37:46 – 37:49
Christy Mazzarisi: there were no women in HR. So.
37:50 – 38:16
Yan Kugel: OK, but it’s quite interesting where does this training or ideas come from? Is it something that they actually were learning in psychology and they brought it up, that they say, okay, this is the healthy way to encourage women, change. You wanna play the game, be like a man, which is absurd, right?
38:16 – 38:53
Christy Mazzarisi: Yeah, I think that there’s just natural things between men and women that make us each unique and work better together if we can focus on our strengths. And I have had, while I’ve had some very awful situation with some men in leadership. I had some really amazing relationships with men in leadership. So not everyone is the same. I can say that. And I think it’s just finding, again, the culture that fits with yours. But I do not think it’s healthy to take that type of advice, unless that’s who you are, right? Unless you are maybe a
38:53 – 39:23
Christy Mazzarisi: little more introverted or maybe you, you know, you are, you know, I don’t know how to, I’m trying to think of the right words. You know, maybe you’re on the quieter side. Maybe you want to be more technical. Well, then I think you need to take those pieces into account and just really understand what do you want from your next role? What do you want from your people, the people around you? What do you want from a mentor? What do you want from a sponsor? Because everyone has different wants and needs. Some people do want to
39:23 – 39:46
Christy Mazzarisi: get up and be VP of quality, right? And then there’s others who know, I just want to do my job. I want to work in the lab. I’m happy doing my lab stuff. And that’s all I want to do for my career because it makes me truly happy. So I think it’s understanding early in your career what you love, what you want, what your goals are and where you want to be, right? And then try and just keep hitting those goals. But acting outside of your own character is not in anyone’s best interest.
39:47 – 40:20
Yan Kugel: Right. So if you look back to this situation and you analyze it, the situation where it’s stuck in your memory where this would be, and he was very authoritative, and you didn’t act, So what would you have done differently, which is not wearing the heels? So what do you see in the or shout? I don’t know. So or is it the solution? So what do you think you would have done differently and which have impacted the situation.
40:21 – 40:52
Christy Mazzarisi: So I think if I knew what I know now, if I knew all of this information back then, I probably would have stood up for myself a little bit more. I think I would have been a little more vocal because I was very shy back then, especially because it was my first leadership position. And again, I was learning. So I was hoping I would have this learning environment, even though I did not. But I wish I would have been louder and more vocal, not necessarily sharing, but vocal and firm that the way you speak to me,
40:52 – 40:53
Christy Mazzarisi: the way you treat me in front of everybody and in meetings, and I wish I would have been
40:53 – 40:54
Yan Kugel: louder and more vocal, not necessarily sharing, but vocal and firm that the way you speak
40:54 – 41:20
Christy Mazzarisi: to me, the way you treat me in front of everybody and in meetings. And I wish I would have been more vocal about the disrespect, especially because I never returned it because I don’t feel that, oh, well, match disrespect with disrespect. That doesn’t work for me either. So I was always still super respectful, still nice, still did what I had to do. But I wish I would have been more vocal to maybe nip it in the butt or show that into those couple of individuals that you can’t treat me this way, you know, just because you’re
41:20 – 41:48
Christy Mazzarisi: whoever you are, right, that it’s not acceptable and then I’m not going to tolerate it. And I wish I would have been a little more vocal for my own self. Even if it worked or didn’t work, I think to ease my own regret slightly, I wish I would have been more vocal. But you don’t know what you don’t know at the time. So that’s a learning for me now is ever since then, I no longer let that happen. And it really doesn’t because I’m very selective about where I go and the people I bring into my
41:48 – 41:49
Christy Mazzarisi: circle.
41:49 – 41:55
Yan Kugel: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s, yeah.
41:55 – 42:12
Speaker 4: So it’s very interesting about, you know, improving yourself and, you know, using the knowledge that you have, but also, you know, the, which also what the HR said And so I myself, I’m also introvert. And
42:13 – 42:54
Yan Kugel: I never felt it easy in big meetings with like 20 people to be the 1 to speak up. So I did, so I said, okay, I need to improve some parts and I read books about communication and so on. And 1 of the books that comes to my mind right now, And it is quite, I think, there was an advisor that I don’t think that can work for women, for example. So I think the book was called Difficult Conversations. And they brought, they bring their different scenarios and played out how you should answer. So I think
42:54 – 43:34
Yan Kugel: this was that book. And in this scenario, you’re a new employee or something like this, and usually there is this tension where somebody like in a PEC needs to establish authority, right? So usually somebody with a higher rank could say something insulting. So the book recommended basically is it was played from a man and the books said, okay, so how do you play it out? You say to him, you know, in my neighborhood, if you would have said it to me, I would have punched you in the nose. So please never say it to me again.
43:36 – 43:44
Yan Kugel: Now let’s say be a civil or something like this, right? But you can, it’s not an advice that probably a woman could say, right? In my mind, I would… I feel like
43:44 – 43:49
Christy Mazzarisi: it would come, It would be weird coming out of my mouth anyway.
43:49 – 43:59
Yan Kugel: But I think it would be much more impactful because I think if a woman would say that it will be much more dangerous, right? That in your neighborhood…
43:59 – 44:02
Christy Mazzarisi: They’d be surprised. Yeah.
44:02 – 44:24
Yan Kugel: And it’s very interesting because such… I never heard such harsh tones in the, you know, and it’s I’m not sure that this book would have been, you know, probably the HR read it because they give such interesting advices, but I don’t think today somebody would appreciate speaking in such tones in the rooms.
44:26 – 44:32
Christy Mazzarisi: Yeah, I try to avoid that at all costs. I feel like it doesn’t get you anywhere.
44:32 – 45:15
Yan Kugel: Yeah. And so it just shows that even the communication, it can be different from if it’s a book that a man wrote, probably it would have different impacts. So it’s interesting, how would a woman act in such a situation, right? And in this case, I think it’s… So I also seen, you know, in companies where I seen very powerful women in their career and very vocal ones, and ones that don’t shy to shout and also embarrass men and just put them in the corner, which in a way I would say, I don’t think it’s respectful to
45:15 – 45:19
Yan Kugel: the person. It doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a female, right? So I think
45:19 – 45:19
Speaker 4: there
45:19 – 45:43
Yan Kugel: are people, men, female, that have different ways of communicating, more harsh, less harsh. But I did notice that a lot of the women that I’ve seen actually in very high positions in global quality and so on, a lot of them had to be very
45:47 – 45:59
Speaker 4: aggressive in the work. So usually the men that I’ve seen, they can usually talk very calmly, etc. But I did notice that
46:01 – 46:07
Yan Kugel: the women that were in the higher positions, usually they were acting in a way that they had to be more
46:08 – 46:16
Speaker 4: vocal and put the people in their places much more vocally, than I would say that
46:16 – 46:31
Yan Kugel: men would do it because otherwise it may be if men would have done it, it would be like too aggressive and people would be really, you know, would run to the chair and say, you know, I cannot work with this guy. And then there will be like a fighter after works or something. I don’t know.
46:31 – 46:31
Speaker 4: What do you think?
46:31 – 46:32
Yan Kugel: It doesn’t make
46:32 – 46:32
Speaker 4: sense?
46:33 – 47:02
Christy Mazzarisi: It does. I’ve seen that. Even though I haven’t had as many issues in my career, I still realized when I was the chief quality officer and when I was VP and other higher up positions where I had to talk to executives often that I would have to be more vocal. I would have to make sure that I was seen, you know, seen when quotes I was sitting right there, but you know, that I was seen as a valued business partner. So I had to make sure early on when I do get in with the executive team
47:02 – 47:33
Christy Mazzarisi: that I build trust. I feel like you can tone down that aggressiveness and that being seen and being heard and having to be that little bit extra aggressive just to be able to be part of that team. If you build trust early on, it’s helped a lot. You know, as soon as you even interviewing or prior to even joining the company, start building trust with the leadership. You know, having them get to know you as a person, then it becomes a little bit easier and you can tone that down a little bit in the boardroom when
47:33 – 48:00
Christy Mazzarisi: you’re having those difficult discussions. I think when they get to know you as a person, on that more personal level, they see you as just that. You are a person. Here you’re this person. Yes, you’re also a mom and a wife and a this and a that. And same thing with the men. You’re a father, you’re a husband, you’re, you know, you have daughters, right? You know, whoever has daughters, you know, it’s like you wanna sometimes remind them your daughter could be here 1 day, right? And would you want them to be treated in any such
48:00 – 48:20
Christy Mazzarisi: way by a man or a woman. So I see a lot of companies moving in the right direction, at least the ones I’ve been working with. But I’m sure it’s still out there. And I’m sure these women still have to be a little more vocal because even me today, sometimes I need to. But it’s very few and far between. So,
48:21 – 48:21
Speaker 1: yeah.
48:21 – 48:43
Yan Kugel: Right. So what would be your final advice that you think could be very impactful, something that women can do easily and quickly, any exercise or anything that they can do to quickly change things in their career.
48:44 – 49:17
Christy Mazzarisi: Sure. So this is something I did after I had that big aha moment and I’m like, I need to help other women. When I had that moment, what I did was I wrote down 5 things that made me super uncomfortable or scared me. And I made a list, these are 5 things I’m afraid of or uncomfortable doing. And then I started tackling each 1 because I knew those were areas of improvement as well, right? It’s being self-aware. So take some time to look inside, you know, understand who you are, what things make you uncomfortable and then
49:17 – 49:38
Christy Mazzarisi: attack all of those 1 at a time, even though you know it’s scary and uncomfortable. Because then once you get past that, you realize how unstoppable you can really be. And you get used to being, you get comfortable being uncomfortable. I guess that’s the saying. But I really believe in it. And I wish I started that a little earlier in my career too, tackling the things I was scared of.
49:40 – 50:21
Yan Kugel: Yeah, that’s a great advice, right? Because a lot of the things that scare us come from an ancient part of the brain, that we are afraid that everything can kill us, right? But if you step back, it’s nothing to be afraid of, right? And yeah, so amazing advice, amazing chat. So Christy, thank you very much for having this chat with me. And if people, young women and people who are interested to hear more advice or want to join the groups that you lead. So we said that we will leave the information in the post, but what
50:21 – 50:28
Yan Kugel: is the best way, other way if you would like for them to contact you? Is it email or just LinkedIn?
50:29 – 50:42
Christy Mazzarisi: LinkedIn is great. I’m very active on it, but I’m happy to also give my email. I give that as well because I’m very open to sharing, very open to meeting new people. To me, it’s what makes life wonderful.
50:42 – 50:55
Yan Kugel: Perfect. Right. So we’ll have all this info in the description of this podcast. Fascinating talk, Christy. Thank you very much and I hope we’ll chat soon again. Thank you.
50:55 – 50:56
Christy Mazzarisi: I appreciate it.
50:57 – 51:12
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Qualitalks Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five-star review. If you want to learn more about GMP, please visit us at www.qualistere.com. Stay compliant and see
51:16 – 51:17
Christy Mazzarisi: you
Christy is the Global Lead of Quality at CGI. She is an accomplished Quality Systems Professional with a broad background in Pharmaceutical and Laboratory sciences with R&D and commercial manufacturing (sterile and non-sterile) experience.
Yan Kugel is joined by Simone Ammons, a dynamic engineer, technical writer, and entrepreneur who has navigated through diverse industries with finesse. She’s the founder of the QuneUp, a data-driven […]
